The big subject for discussion for this week would be the major changes which resulted from me talking with someone with inside knowledge of Building 1425 and Suite B3. Those discussions required that I totally change my thinking about where the keycard readers and the keypad were located.
I also had do do a major overhaul to my new supplemental page called "Where & When Bruce Ivins Made The Anthrax Powders ... allegedly."
Is Suite 1 a BSL1? Suite 2 a BSL2 ? Suite 4 a BSL4? Suite 5 is admin?
ReplyDeleteWhich other suites have keypads?
Since Ivins triggered no keypad entry into B1,B2 or B4, the animals he was checking must have been in B3.
So the mice were in B3?
The rabbits were in B3?
So all Ivins checking animal time was in B3.
Old Atlantic,
ReplyDeleteI don't have any solid information on the other suites. However, the floorplans say that Suites B1, B2 and B4 were identical to Suite 3. They have the same kind of airlock, which indicates they are also BSL-3 suites.
Plus, there are a couple times in the logs when Ivins entered into Suite B4 from the Bacteriology corridor into room B401 (August 18 and September 3) and he used his keycard to do so.
I think it's safe to assume that entry into B1 or B2 would require the use of a keycard.
Suite B4, however, was mostly shut down for renovation at the time of the attacks. And, anyone in Suite B3 could get into Suite B4 (and vice versa) by going through room B308 (or room B407) where a wall had been removed to allow people to go from one suite to the other.
Suite B5 was different. It was NOT a BSL-3 suite. A keycard was NOT required to enter. Ivins had a lab in room B505 in Suite 5.
It's possible that room B505 could have been a BSL-2 lab. But the facts seem to indicate that Suite B5 was a BSL-1 area.
In Suite B3, room B310 was an animal room for mice, B305 was an animal room for guinea pigs.
The facts still say that Ivins left Suite B3 when it was time to check on the animals being tested on September 28 to October 2. The facts suggest the animals were in Suite B5.
The mice and guinea pigs that Ivins MAY have been testing from September 1 to 14 were probably in rooms B310 and B305 in B3.
I don't have any solid information about the locations of the animals, and it's not the kind of question I can ask my source.
But, the facts also say that checking on animals didn't take much time, and checking on animals does not explain the bulk of the time Ivins was spending in Suite B3 in August, September and October of 2001.
Ed
Old Atlantic,
ReplyDeleteI don't have ANY information of any kind as to where the rabbits were located that Ivins supposedly checked on September 28, 29 and 30.
The facts seem to indicate that Ivins left Suite B3 when it was time to check on them.
If the rabbits and mice were in another suite, it had to be a suite that didn't require a keycard to enter. That eliminates any BSL-3 suite (except B3).
It should be a simple matter for someone with an interest in where the animals were located to check with someone from USAMRIID who would have definitive information.
Until proven otherwise, I find the subject of test animals to be irrelevant.
Ed
Old Atlantic asked, "Suite 5 is admin?"
ReplyDeleteNo, Suite B5 is an area that includes BSL-2 labs. It may be entirely a BSL-2 area.
Bruce Ivins had a BSL-2 lab in room B505.
Ed
Based on the comment from your source, Ivins used his area in Suite B5 for cold work, meaning no anthrax present in any form or in any container, including inside the body of an animal.
ReplyDeleteThus the animals are exposed to anthrax in BSL3 or higher and kept in BSL3 or higher until their bodies are disposed of or they are deemed to have survived presumably. In any case, the checks are all done in BSL3.
To get access to any BSL3 area to do animal checks, Ivins would have to leave a keypad record like that at B301. The only such from August to October is B301. Thus any animal check Ivins did from Aug to Oct 2001 was done in Suite B3 or Suite B4 through the connecting door?
And presumably if that door to Suite B4 was unblocked and available, Suite B4 was BSL3 during that time.
On days Ivins was in the BSL3 at night, he was often or not at all in the BSL3 during the day? So all BSL3 work done by him on those days was done solely during the night period?
ReplyDeleteDo we have his time stamps from all day not just at night for August to October 2001?
So if Ivins was to do a night check, he could/would/did save up his work and not go in during the day and did the check and the other BSL3 work during the night check.
This way Ivins avoided the need for an extra shower during the day. He presumably showered at home before coming to work, and then at night after the BSL3 and if during the day that would be 3 per day possibly for several days in a row.
He might have wanted to avoid that much showering. Each time one showers going out of the BSL3 it is presumably a more thorough shower than a typical shower since you are trying to keep other people in your life from getting anthrax spore exposure. No spores were found in Ivins home and car, so it shows he did shower thoroughly coming out of the BSL3.
Any lab or journal or computer entries made from the BSL3 during the days Ivins was only in the BSL3 at night had to be made during the night check time. These should all be subject to FOIA.
Old Atlantic's questions below are in italics, and my responses are in normal text:
ReplyDelete"Based on the comment from your source, Ivins used his area in Suite B5 for cold work, meaning no anthrax present in any form or in any container, including inside the body of an animal.
Presumably.
To get access to any BSL3 area to do animal checks, Ivins would have to leave a keypad record like that at B301. The only such from August to October is B301. Thus any animal check Ivins did from Aug to Oct 2001 was done in Suite B3 or Suite B4 through the connecting door?
It certainly seems so, particularly for August and early September. I cannot state for certain, however, that there was no work done with anthrax in any BSL-2 area. That just seems to be the case.
On days Ivins was in the BSL3 at night, he was often or not at all in the BSL3 during the day? So all BSL3 work done by him on those days was done solely during the night period?
Do we have his time stamps from all day not just at night for August to October 2001?
We have his times in B3, but not his times in Building 1425. Click HERE for his B3 times for all of 2001.
It's a good question. A quick glance at the data indicates that he worked normal daytime hours during those days, except NOT on weekends. He didn't go into work during the day on September 29 and 30. But he worked long hours in the evenings.
On Saturday October 6, he didn't work at all, day or evening. On Sunday the 7th, he was in B3 for 23 minutes from 2:56 PM to 3:19 PM. Nothing in the evening.
So if Ivins was to do a night check, he could/would/did save up his work and not go in during the day and did the check and the other BSL3 work during the night check.
That's clearly not the situation. The evening hours were ADDITIONAL hours. He worked normal daytime hours.
He might have wanted to avoid that much showering.
I recall reading just yesterday an FBI file which said Ivins went into the lab in the evenings JUST to shower. He apparently liked the shower in B3 better than the one at home.
Ed
Old Atlantic,
ReplyDeletePage 24 of FBI pdf file #847425 is an interview where this is reported:
"IVINS liked to take showers in the suites on days that he was not working. He did this to get away from his home or the use the internet, etc."
Ed
Old Atlantic wrote: "This way Ivins avoided the need for an extra shower during the day. He presumably showered at home before coming to work, and then at night after the BSL3 and if during the day that would be 3 per day possibly for several days in a row."
ReplyDeleteThat's not the way it works. You have to shower before going into the BSL-3 labs to make sure you aren't carrying in any contamination. And you have to shower when you leave the BSL-3 labs to make sure you aren't carrying any deadly bacteria from the labs into the outside.
So, if Ivins went into B3 and room B313 four times during a given day, he showered EIGHT times.
That's a point the FBI makes in their Summary Report on page 30: "It is important to note that entering and leaving B-313 is a time-consuming process. One must disrobe and change into lab attire on the way in, and then, on the way out, change out of the lab-wear, shower, and get dressed."
Ed
Thank you for your detailed answers.
ReplyDeleteOld Lighthouse,
ReplyDeleteNo problem. I'm going to try to work up a graph comparing Ivins' daytime hours for September to his evening hours. Hopefully, it will be on my site by tomorrow.
Ed
The 10 PM notation for animal checks is simply an indication of the name of the animal check not the actual time. It can be done before or after or around it.
ReplyDeleteThere are animal checks done during the day by people. There is a 6 AM and 2 PM. Those people didn't do their animal checks in the space of 60 seconds either. They too did some animal checks before or after or around that time.
Are you going to claim that the animals in a different place then the people who did the day time checks log times show as well? Because you will have to do that too. People don't do animal checks at 6 AM or 2 PM precisely either but still put that down in their log books.
Every night check was marked 10 PM not because they were all done at precisely that time but because that was the name of that check in the protocol/plan.
Old Atlantic wrote: "The 10 PM notation for animal checks is simply an indication of the name of the animal check not the actual time. It can be done before or after or around it."
ReplyDeleteI know that. It's obvious from the data.
We have two collections of data: (1) the in-out logs, which are recorded automatically, and (2) the notebook page for September 27 through October 14, which is done by a human and therefore can be general time notations.
However, the facts say that during 20 out of the 22 times noted on that notebook page, Ivins was NOT in Suite B3. Some of the times he wasn't even in Building 1425.
The argument was that Ivins was checking on animals during the time he was in Suite B3, and that was the reason he was in Suite B3.
The facts show that argument to be FALSE. At the time the animals were checked during the period from September 27 to October 9, Ivins was generally NOT in Suite B3.
So, Ivins was doing something in Suite B3 in the evenings that had nothing to do with animal checks.
Are you claiming that Ivins recorded things accurately only 2 out of 22 times? Are you claiming that the 20 times the in-out log shows he was not in suite B3 he was actually IN Suite B3 almost every time?
Are you going to claiming that the notebook page has nothing to do with reality?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You need some extraordinary proof to back up such extraordinary claims.
The calendar sheets that were found in Ivins' briefcase in November of 2007 indicate he was scheduled to do night checks on animals at 8 PM from September 1 through September 11, 2001. But, the in-out logs show he wasn't in Suite B3 for most of those 8 PM times, either. He wasn't in the BSL-3 section of Suite B3 for the first five of those days, the most critical days.
If your argument is that Ivins NEVER followed the protocols, then you cannot use the protocols to claim what Ivins was doing.
Ed
Until it's known exactly where the animals were located, the facts say
Old Atlantic,
ReplyDeleteIt's ridiculous to claim Ivins kept animals in room B313. There simply wasn't room, and it would have been just plain STUPID to keep animals there. The smell would have bothered the scientists working in the room, and the noise made by machines would have bothered the animals.
There were mice and guinea pig rooms in Suite B3. But the facts say that Ivins was not in Suite B3 during most of the times when he checked on animals. So, it appears that the animals used by Ivins were not in the Suite B3 animal rooms, either.
Where were the animals? I don't know. If one of Ivins' assistants was doing all the checking on the animals, day and night, then they could have been anywhere - including in Building 1412.
The facts say that Ivins' assistants were NOT working with him in the evenings. The FBI did a lot of checking of others who were in Building 1425 at the same time as Ivins to see if Ivins had any help in making the anthrax powders. His assistants were NOT there with him.
The facts say that, if Ivins was doing the animal checks in the evenings, the animals were somewhere outside of Suites B3 & B4.
I would welcome any solid proof of where the animals were located.
Ed